Tuesday, October 01, 2002

Have you stopped murdering your political opponents?

OK, when I started this weblog, I promised myself that the two things I would never do because they're corny and cliched were:

  • I would never waste time on articles about Anne Coulter
  • I would never write articles that were just tiny incestuous retorts to other weblogs and which obviously belonged in the comments section of someone else's weblog


Time for the other shoe to drop ....

Brad DeLong has a thing going on at the moment about the main trope of Martin Amis' "Koba the Dread" (capsule review: don't bother) and about Eric Hobsbawm. Basically, the question is:

Q: Why is it that there are so many people who are generally liked and respected who are ex-Stalinists, while we hate and revile people with a Fascist background?

The usual answers to this question tend to involve tendentious corpse-counting, or slightly less tendentious assertions about the utopian ambitions and/or historical conditions pertaining to various political parties active in Europe in the 20th century. I think the answer is much simpler:

A: Because there are lots of ex-Stalinists around who are likeable, intelligent people worthy of our respect despite their political history, whereas ex-Fascists are in general a horrible bunch of people

People who like Eric Hobsbawm despite his Stalinist past do so because "well, you can forgive Eric Hobsbawm", not because "well, you can forgive Stalinism". If he'd been the same intelligent, generous, personable bloke, but had been a Nazi, he'd still have been forgiven. In actual fact, Nazi geniuses like Heidegger and Furtwangler were given the most incredible free pass while they were alive. It just happens to be the case that there were a lot of decent and intelligent British and American people who supported left-wing totalitarianism in the 20th century, while there were almost no decent and intelligent British and American people who supported Nazism. Or rather, it doesn't "just happen" to be the case; I'm personally of the opinion that a Nazi Hobsbawm would have been a psychological and sociological impossibility.

Look at it this way; the question is well-posed, but most of the attempts to answer it (including Niall Ferguson's and Brad's) are not. Eric Hobsbawm and all the other Stalinist comrades are, in general, forgiven. Old Nazis, in general, aren't. That's a sociological fact, and the question invites an explanation of why that sociological fact should be the case. My explanation is that it's a particular example of a lawlike generalisation; that Communists are in general nicer people than Fascists, so they get given more leeway. What most of the attempts to answer it seem to boil down to, is an attempt to deny the fact that they ought to explain; to attempt to reopen a judgement which has clearly already been made by society in general. If you start fulminating at Eric Hobsbawm and trying to claim that he's on the same level as David Irving, then all you're doing is making a short polemic of your own; you're not coming any closer to explaining the fact that Hobsbawm is a nice old man who likes jazz and Irving is a bitter and occasionally dangerous old bastard. Furthermore, you tend to come across as a bit of a loony, or worse, as Martin Amis, and the market for that sort of writing (basically, the Daily Telegraph) is already saturated.

That's basically what attracted me personally to left wing politics in the first place; there isn't so much downright nastiness to left wing political writing. You can usually forgive most lefty commentators the parts of their ideas which are insanely dangerous, illiberal or impractical, because you know that their heart's in the right place; for the most part, they're trying to help someone less fortunate than themself, albeit usually in a monumentally counter-productive way and without thought of the side-effects. With their equivalents on the right (and it gets worse, the further right you go), the subtext is always there "me me me". Galbraith said it, and these few words are to my mind worth every word John Rawls ever wrote, that "the project of conversative political thought throughout the ages has been that of finding a higher moral justification for selfishness". Since I'm strongly of the belief that it matters not just what we do, but what kind of people we are, that matters to me.

While we're on the subject, here's a question of the same kind that I regard as much more interesting (because more personal and less subject to political grandstanding) than the one about "who was worse?":

Q: Why is it regarded as vastly more acceptable for an adult male to attack a small child with the intention of causing pain in certain circumstances, than is for him to attack an adult female (presumably vastly more capable of defending herself) in exactly the same circumstances?

We've got MPs and prominent politicians (I believe the USA has too) who think it's OK to beat their children in order to punish them for insolence. How many of them would hang onto their jobs and status if they came out tomorrow and said that they hadn't mentioned it before, but they also beat their wives in similar circumstances? Ought to get a few comments on this one ....

1 comment:

  1. (name)Brad DeLong(/name)
    (email)delong[at]econ[[[.]]]berkeley[[[.]]]edu(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    Re:
    ))Eric Hobsbawm and all the other Stalinist comrades are, in general, forgiven. Old Nazis, in general, aren't. That's a sociological fact, and the question invites an explanation of why that sociological fact should be the case.((
    Well, yes, that's one of the things I said. (Or, rather, one of the things I was ineptly trying to say.)(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Tuesday 2002-10-01 15:02:50(/datetime)
    (name)Brad DeLong(/name)
    (email)delong[at]econ[[[[.]]]]berkeley[[[[.]]]]edu(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    Re:
    ))We've got MPs and prominent politicians (I believe the USA has too) who think it's OK to beat their children in order to punish them for insolence. How many of them would hang onto their jobs and status if they came out tomorrow and said that they hadn't mentioned it before, but they also beat their wives in similar circumstances? Ought to get a few comments on this one .... ((

    Aren't there some prominent British right-wing writers who hang onto their jobs even though they get other people to beat *them* for insolence?(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Tuesday 2002-10-01 20:52:08(/datetime)
    (name)Jason McCullough(/name)
    (email)jason[at]hronk[[[[[.]]]]]com(/email)
    (uri)http://zebco.blogspot.com/(/uri)

    You can combine the arguments! The reason ex-communists were forgiven is that they're kind of people who got involved for its vision of utopia, and blagh blagh blagh.(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Tuesday 2002-10-01 22:47:09(/datetime)
    (name)David Margolies(/name)
    (email)divaricatum[at]aol[.]com(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    Perhaps ex-communists only beat their children, while ex-nazis beat their wives. (I have no idea whether it is true.)

    No one is talking about actual ex-nazis or nazi sympathizers, except Heidegger and Furtwangler, who were German, and could claim patriotism. (Germany was filled with ex-nazis, of course. It was rather hard to cut them all and still deal with Germans.)

    There is Phillip Johnson (the architect) who was in Berlin in the 30's quite liking what he saw. That has been more or less forgotten. There were a bunch of people who appreciated that Italian trains ran on time, that there wasn't much crime in Spain, that Greece was much nicer after the Colonels took over, etc. The type mostly appears, mostly unnamed, in discussions of the 30s (or 50s and 60s), but actual practicioners, if that was their only crime, do not suffer much.

    Another difference is fascist regimes were defeated and occupied, while communist ones were not, so soon after the event we knew more or less everything there was to know about, say, nazi Germany. We did not officially know about Stalinism until Khruschev's speech, or later, though those who could see did see well enough, even in the 30's. But note ex-spanish fascists and even ex-italian fascists were (are) still on guest lists. It is really only the (not German) ex nazis who are not welcome.

    And it wasn't all that easy to be a non-German (or Germanic at least) nazi, becuase you were admitting to your own inferiority, and so obviously had self-esteem problems that would probably mean that there was no chance of being a nice old fellow regardless of your politics. That problem the communists did not have.(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Wednesday 2002-10-02 00:11:02(/datetime)
    (name)Jeremy Leader(/name)
    (email)jleader[at]alumni[[[[[[[.]]]]]]]caltech[[[[[[[.]]]]]]]edu(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    David Margolies, you briefly touch on the point I wanted to add: Nazis (and many other brands of Fascists) tend to believe in racial/ethnic/national superiority as a fundamental part of their political philosophy. While there are plenty of Communists with similar beliefs, such beliefs aren't central to Communism. Communism in its purer forms is a global, inclusive sort of philosophy (";Workers of the World, unite!"; etc.).

    Though on the other hand, Communists tend to believe bad things about Capitalists and owners of the means of production.

    Maybe part of the difference is that Communism tends to blame a small, priviledged group for the world's ills, while Fascism tends to blame larger groups of outsiders (often poorer or individually less powerful than the Fascists doing the blaming) for the world's ills.(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Wednesday 2002-10-02 00:59:30(/datetime)
    (name)dsquared(/name)
    (email)(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    Yeh, I tend to agree with Jeremy and David ... the main part of the problem is that Fascists are also racists, which is something more or less entirely incompatible with being he kind of person who is likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

    Adorno's work on the ";authoritarian personality"; also refers, I think; despite the fact that ";old Comrades"; were very clearly *objectively* pro-authoritarian, there were pretty few authoritarian personalities among them.

    I mean, for christ's sake, a couple of posts down you'll find me accusing Bill Clinton of about a million murders (";Bubba the Dread"; -- if I were you I'd skim briefly over the post where I end up taking it all back). Despite this, I like the guy; if I had the chance to have lunch with him, I'd jump at it. George HW Bush, otoh, who has almost certainly killed far fewer people; not a freaking chance.(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Wednesday 2002-10-02 01:11:51(/datetime)
    (name)Skarl(/name)
    (email)Skarl[at]telus[.]net(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    Since this is my first post here, I'd like to say that, IMHO, this is the best blog on the net.

    As to the second question, the difference is that the adult male is disciplining the child, and he has no right to do so to another adult.(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Wednesday 2002-10-02 13:43:05(/datetime)
    (name)Rob Schaap(/name)
    (email)rschaap[at]iprimus[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[.]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]com[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[.]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]au(/email)
    (uri)http://blogorrhoea.blogspot.com/(/uri)

    Mebbe commies do think bad things about cappos, but I'm not sure the theory backs 'em up. It's all about relations and the commodity form doing its thing behind our backs, innit? Capitalism ain't cappos, just as patriarchy ain't men, if you know what I mean.

    Oh, and the commies were on to something - a problem if not an answer - as Solzhenitsyn said, 'although the earthly ideal of Socialism-Communism has collapsed, the problems it purported to solve remain'. Got that outa Eric's Age of Extremes, btw. I love the bloke.(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Wednesday 2002-10-02 19:10:43(/datetime)
    (name)Jeremy Leader(/name)
    (email)jleader[at]alumni[[[[[[[[[.]]]]]]]]]caltech[[[[[[[[[.]]]]]]]]]edu(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    Wasn't there some American leftist who told HUAC or McCarthy or somebody ";anyone who wasn't a communist at 20 has no heart; anyone who is still a communist at 40 has no brain";?(/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Wednesday 2002-10-02 21:06:08(/datetime)
    (name)David Margolies(/name)
    (email)divaricatum[at]aol[[.]]com(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    DD writes

    ";if I had the chance to have lunch with (Clinton, responsible for 100K+ deaths), I'd jump at it. George HW Bush, otoh, who has almost certainly killed far fewer people; not a freaking chance.";

    Give him time.

    Jeremy Leader says:


    ";Wasn't there some American leftist who told HUAC or McCarthy or somebody ";anyone who wasn't a communist at 20 has no heart; anyone who is still a communist at 40 has no brain";?";

    I do not think it was a leftist. I think is was Charles Evans Hughes, Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, talking to someone who was worried that his college-aged son was a socialist.
    (/text)

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    (comment)
    (datetime)Friday 2002-10-04 00:57:33(/datetime)
    (name)Matt Weiner(/name)
    (email)mcwst5[at]pitt[.]edu(/email)
    (uri)(/uri)

    That seems like one of those mind-bending quotes, attributed to everyone. Here's a link to a page about it:
    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5952/unquote.html
    It cites Bennet Cerf quoting Clemenceau saying (of his son):
    ";If he had not become a Communist at 22, I would have disowned him.
    If he is still a Communist at 30, I will do it then.";
    with the early version by Francois Guizot in the nineteenth century:
    ";Not to be a republican at 20 is proof of want of heart; to be one at 30 is proof of want of head.";
    It's possible that everyone to whom it's attributed really did say it, each misquoting the one before.(/text)

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