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Monday, May 09, 2011
Notes on the pupported biological basis of altruism
Do you occasionally wonder what JBS Haldane's reaction would be if he found out that his wife had slept with his brother? Would it be better or worse if she had slept with eight of his cousins?
I know a guy who has a 3/4 sister who he only met when they were both past 60. When my friend's father was in WWII his mother got it on with her brother-in-law.
Not from any of the ethnic groups accused of that kind of stuff, but from a very poor country family.
Oh you pedant Gareth. Hypothetically then, hypothetically. It does seem to me that a logical corollary of "being willing to lay down one's life for two siblings or eight cousins" ought to be that you would be *less* displeased to find out about adultery with one of your blood relatives than with a stranger.
Well, speaking purely hypothetically, it seems like a plausible mechanism. So if you found some species which exhibited this behaviour (and all the relevant behaviours were plausibly under genetic control), then it'd be a good hypothesis for investigation. So which species behaves like this?
With kin selection there is a phenomenon needing explanation (evolutionarily speaking, how do worker ants benefit from eusociality?) and kin selection is a plausible explanatory hypothesis. It might be right or wrong (or apply in some cases and not in others) but it provides a starting point for tests like this one.
(I'm spoiling your joke by taking it seriously, but you're doing the same for Haldane's, so I think fair's fair.)
I seem to remember the question of what might happen if Haldane himself were to have had relations with his mother might have been addressed by Raffles The Gentleman Thug, without conclusive result.
has some quite interesting models of both kin and non-kin group selection, e.g. versions of John Maynard Smith's 'haystack' model. Open question whether some of those models are actually instantiated or not.
On the (flimsy) basis of having read Marek Kohn's excellent mini-bio of Haldane in A Reason For Everything, I don't think any reaction from JBSH would surprise me to finding his hypothetical brother having it off with either of his wives...
I don't know about the brother, but presumably he'd be much nicer to any resulting bastard than a stranger's bastard. Then again I just started reading A Game of Thrones and the bit where Caetlyn is horrible to Jon Snow is still fresh in my mind.
They are haplodiploidal, which is one of the reasons why it makes sense
Indeed. Though there are non-haplodiploidal eusocial animals - mole rats, for example. But haplodiploidy makes it a lot more advantageous to be eusocial, because you are more closely related to your sisters than to your daughters.
I agree that it is an interesting question and might be worth investigating.
As far as I can tell, J. B. S. Haldane did not have a brother, so he would probably have been quite surprised.
ReplyDeleteI know a guy who has a 3/4 sister who he only met when they were both past 60. When my friend's father was in WWII his mother got it on with her brother-in-law.
ReplyDeleteNot from any of the ethnic groups accused of that kind of stuff, but from a very poor country family.
Oh you pedant Gareth. Hypothetically then, hypothetically. It does seem to me that a logical corollary of "being willing to lay down one's life for two siblings or eight cousins" ought to be that you would be *less* displeased to find out about adultery with one of your blood relatives than with a stranger.
ReplyDeleteWell, speaking purely hypothetically, it seems like a plausible mechanism. So if you found some species which exhibited this behaviour (and all the relevant behaviours were plausibly under genetic control), then it'd be a good hypothesis for investigation. So which species behaves like this?
ReplyDeleteWith kin selection there is a phenomenon needing explanation (evolutionarily speaking, how do worker ants benefit from eusociality?) and kin selection is a plausible explanatory hypothesis. It might be right or wrong (or apply in some cases and not in others) but it provides a starting point for tests like this one.
(I'm spoiling your joke by taking it seriously, but you're doing the same for Haldane's, so I think fair's fair.)
An equally interesting question is what would happen if Haldane found his wife sleeping with his father.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember the question of what might happen if Haldane himself were to have had relations with his mother might have been addressed by Raffles The Gentleman Thug, without conclusive result.
ReplyDeleteFWIW, also spoiling the joke:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Unto-Others-Evolution-Psychology-Unselfish/dp/0674930479
has some quite interesting models of both kin and non-kin group selection, e.g. versions of John Maynard Smith's 'haystack' model. Open question whether some of those models are actually instantiated or not.
On the (flimsy) basis of having read Marek Kohn's excellent mini-bio of Haldane in A Reason For Everything, I don't think any reaction from JBSH would surprise me to finding his hypothetical brother having it off with either of his wives...
ReplyDeleteLeonard Cohen, on the other hand...
Gareth Rees said: "...evolutionarily speaking, how do worker ants benefit from eusociality?"
ReplyDeleteObviously, they help to aid copies of their genes (in the queens and drones) to be passed on.
They are haplodiploidal, which is one of the reasons why it makes sense:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplodiploidy#Relatedness_ratios_in_haplodiploid
Do you think that Haldane ever lived in this part of Tibet?
ReplyDeleteMarcel
I don't know about the brother, but presumably he'd be much nicer to any resulting bastard than a stranger's bastard.
ReplyDeleteThen again I just started reading A Game of Thrones and the bit where Caetlyn is horrible to Jon Snow is still fresh in my mind.
All eight cousins at once, or on separate occasions?
ReplyDeleteThey are haplodiploidal, which is one of the reasons why it makes sense
ReplyDeleteIndeed. Though there are non-haplodiploidal eusocial animals - mole rats, for example. But haplodiploidy makes it a lot more advantageous to be eusocial, because you are more closely related to your sisters than to your daughters.
I agree that it is an interesting question and might be worth investigating.