More from Napoleon's Golden Bridge
By the way, the ongoing meltdown of the BNP, being reported on by Chris, is a wonderful example of how blogs are great things. Blogs are rather like sodium pentathol or Stella Artois in their effect on social inhibitions, so when you add them to a scene which is largely composed of people with poor impulse control at the best of times, then you are basically lighting the blue touch paper. I wish I'd thought about this, but I should have made the prediction that the mainstream adoption of blogging would more or less spell the end of extreme right and left wing politics in the UK. Blogs generate flamewars - that's what they do, it's all they do. So it was ensured by the governing power law that sooner or later, the BNP-bloggers and the SWP-RESPECT bloggers would end up throwing up a rilly rilly big flamewar.
Now when a flame war starts up, the only thing that will stop it is one or both participants deciding to stop being so silly and swallow their pride. Therefore it's a pretty easy prediction to make that a flame-war among a bunch of people self-selected for fragile egos and stubbornness, is going to be very difficult to end and is going to be very destructive indeed in the meantime. Bang bang.
Meanwhile, we're trying to block and censor jihadi forums and blogs in order to stop the internet from being used as a recruiting tool for al-Qaeda. How mad is that? Of course the jihadi sites are going to recruit bored British teenagers into extremist Islamism. Specifically, they're going to recruit the Walter Mittys, halfwits and loose cannons that will end up destroying their movement. I really don't think it's a good idea to put any obstacles in the way of Hizb ut Tahrir's drive to recruit the Mark Colletts of the future.
Personally, as discussed here and in a few past posts on the subject, I'm broadly in favour of the existence of the BNP as an at least moderately functional organisation, perhaps even with some national representation. The basic reason for this is that it would discourage the mainstream parties from playing silly fucking games like this in a vague half-witted attempt to try and shore up a few "white working class" votes that aren't worth chasing.
Is there really any reason to think that a tendency to flame substantially increases with the distance from the political centre? It's not really my experience.
ReplyDeleteIf there is such a tendency at all, I'd tentatively suggest that it resides less in the personalities of the protagonists than there position: that people who are normally far from the centre of political events will suffer a tendency to frustration, hopelessness etc and this will enter deeply into their attitude to others and themselves.
There's also a syndrome by which, if you are some way to (say) the left of the poltiical mainstream, it's really very hard to put your views across because you're forever being accused of something you're not. (One of the virtues of Harry's Place, for instance, and there's not many, is that it may help introduce people to that experience who are not normally on the receiving end. It's not pleasant and it does not breed the habit of engaging constructively with the people who do it.)
No, I think there is a genuine personality complex of members of extreme political parties (which is not the same as just having extreme politics) which means that they tend to be instinctively contrarian and not to have a really good sense of perspective. There really are very few "go-along-get-along" types in far left or far right politics.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it precisely the functionality of the BNP that's in danger of panicking mainstream parties into making a play for those "white working class" votes?
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, I was at university with Collett and he was always just as self-important and vain as he is now. Politics aside, I quite liked him.
Oh, I was going to link to the discussion of this on Chris's site but forgot, I'll do it now. Basically, I think that it's more the Labour party's failure (and the general demise of political involvement in the UK leading to a lot of low-turnout byelection and local contests in which the BNP suddenly do scary percentage numbers) that is making them scramble around for solutions, of which this is clearly part of the genre. I don't really believe that the BNP's electoral successes have much to do with their actual popularity as a party.
ReplyDeleteThere really are very few "go-along-get-along" types in far left or far right politics.
ReplyDeleteFrom experience, I'm disinclined to agree: I've known plenty of quiet far-leftists, but the point about them is that you don't notice them.
Of course there may well be an element by which people will be attracted to politics if it allows an outlet for prominent elements of their personality (e.g. New Labour attracts the ambitious, perhaps) but I wouldn't make too much of it: once we do, we're into the tenenency to treat other people's politics psychologically - you'll recall some stuff on AW recently whereby leftists are leftists out of "narcissism". Maybe a valid approach when discussing historically significant individuals, but somewhat unfruitful as a means of conducting a discussion. "You're shouty and contrarian" is probably inferior, as a means of proceeding, to "I think you're probably wrong for reasons A and B".
I was always interested in doing some kind of analysis of the psychological types you could observe in left groups, from my experiences in the 70s. The IMG were quite easy to get on with, as were the anarchists, always good for a drink. The CP were inflexible careerists. The CPBML were hyper-intellectual, but at least you could argue with them and not fall out. The SWP and Miltant were like hyperactive children, and seemed only determined to develop their paper-selling pyramid scheme. The RCP were just mad. Now Living Marxism, I believe, so still mad.
ReplyDeleteNow Living Marxism, I believe
ReplyDeleteNo, not for years now.
When I was a member of a left group, I could probably have been persuaded to carry out a psychological analysis of people who wanted to carry out psychological analyses of people in left groups.
Incidentally, Attila da Hoare, was flirting with LM politics on his blog:
ReplyDeletehttp://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/madeleine-bunting-helps-to-keep-the-third-world-poor/
Liam Byrne is really a piece of work. He spends 50% of the time courting the reactionary elements among the 'white working class' half of his constituency, and the other 50% courting the reactionary elements among the asian half. Oh, and if he has any time left over he uses it to write tedious 'policy papers' on the necessity of further marketisation of public services. And whenever he appears on telly he comes across as a sniggering, sneering prick.
ReplyDeleteExpect him to be Home Secretary within the year.
Attila really does do a marvellous job in producing titles which tell you why you really don't want to read the piece.
ReplyDeleteI actually clicked the link and waited for the page to load before sanity prevailed. How shall I spend the next five minutes? Reading an intelligent and closely-argued blog post which is likely to make me furiously angry? Or not? It wasn't hard.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I agree with ejh on the more general point about personality types. But I think you have got a point about the explosiveness of the blog medium in the context of factional politics - a detailed rebuttal of an opponent's argument used to take days to write and weeks to circulate, now you can get it written and posted in half an hour.
ejh. I accept your criticism of my post. It was badly phrased. I should perhaps have said that I was intrigued by the way that similar types gravitated towards one groupuscle or another. And you can see aspects of the CP stereotype in Reid and Trot stereotype in Milburn, for example. But you're correct. It can lead to laziness, and is no substitute for argument.
ReplyDeleteDuring the process of intense dialectic that led to these beautiful thoughts, which has left me with the sensation of a pig shitting in my head, I seem to have stated that the Iraqi insurgency is an example of a radical movement that needs to recruit idiots specifically. A typical cell consists of a couple of ex-Iraqi Army officers and technicians who make the carbomb, the computer guy, and a dozen or so deluded religious nuts from Saudi Arabia who will eventually be the meat guidance packages.
ReplyDeleteUnlike a political party which is trying to get elected, which needs reasonably intelligent members, or an army, which needs people capable of being useful riflemen (i.e. reasonably self-reliant and capable), a movement reliant on suicide bombers needs first and foremost to recruit a constant flow of opinionated but stupid teenagers.
yes, I seem to remember thinking that was a good point at the time while trying to bullshit my way out of it. I am profoundly glad I didn't have to get up to go to work this morning.
ReplyDeleteDid you see the Israeli walt again?
ReplyDeleteI'm going to arbitrarily step in here and say "thank you" for your participation in the unfogged spanking thread. Your right, and the people arguing against you are wrong. I will in-fact steal the /child abuse/spouse abuse analogy the next time people argue that abusing your children is ok.
ReplyDelete"Unlike a political party which is trying to get elected, which needs reasonably intelligent members, or an army, which needs people capable of being useful riflemen (i.e. reasonably self-reliant and capable), a movement reliant on suicide bombers needs first and foremost to recruit a constant flow of opinionated but stupid teenagers."
ReplyDeleteAn army also needs a constant flow of replacement rifleman. It'd be nice to have a constant flow of self-reliant, capable and short-lived riflemen, but that's hard to get.
- Barry