I shit on the progressives of this planet
Shorter: (with thanks to Alex) "Please! Don't press any of those fucking buttons, some of them are dangerous!"
This is in some way a reply to the "Never Trust A Hippy" blog. The author appears to be dedicated to building a consensual, progressive political culture and to be dead set against nihilism and in favour of communitarian values. Nevertheless, he claims not to be a hippy and in the absence of photographic evidence I am prepared to believe him. It follows on from this exchange at Chicken Yoghurt, at which the waggy finger of disapproval was pointed at those of us who spend most of our time in criticising the government because of its corruption and authoritarianism, rather than praising it for opening SureStart schemes and perhaps suggesting our own plans for a community based after-school organic yoghurt collective ... no sorry, I must emphasise that Paulie of the "Never Trust A Hippy" blog is not a hippy, despite appearances and I will refrain from further suggestions that he is. It all spilled out into the blogosphere, leading to Damian Counsell (as far as I can tell) challenging Justin to a game of Petulant Post Poker (my suggestion would be to open up strong with this one, J-Mac). And so on. So anyway, for fans of windy manifestoes (and I know you all are), here is mine.
Part 1: General facts about the world
First of all, do no harm. It is perhaps notable that, for a profession that has making things better as its entire reason for being, the Hippocratic Oath of the doctors starts off with these words. First of all, do no harm. This is about as old and fundamental as moral principles get. Preventing things from getting worse has to be the first priority. This is why it often makes sense to be allied with conservatives or even reactionaries on all sorts of issues. Plenty of government schemes involve removing important liberties from the population, in return for either nothing very much, or for spurious projections of jam tomorrow. Such things are almost always best opposed on general principles. The duty of opposition to the bad is in general much more important than the promotion of the good - if there is a piece of shit in your stew, you need less shit, not more stew.
We are a First World country. The UK is not a Third World country. It is part of that very small geographical and historical island where people have enough food to eat to maintain their health. This makes an important political difference, because it means that order of magnitude gains in the material well-being of anyone in the UK are unlikely to be possible. The trade-off between liberty and other social goods is very different for us than for the vast majority of humanity now and throughout history. Even if such tradeoffs exist (which I doubt), they should not be taken. The possible material gains are just too small for what is being sacrificed. The big change of the last forty years is that the preoccupations of the British public are not, for the most part, economic any more, and in so far as they are, they are problems that can be solved simply by writing more generous cheques through the existing social welfare systems, without any great over-reaching change.
The government can't make you happy. As I say, this is a First World country. It is possible to lead a good, rewarding life here, more or less whoever you are. It is nicer to be rich than poor, but even being poor is not so bad. The important thing, however, is that there is not that much that the government can do to make you happy. It can remove obstacles from your way, like curable ill health, but the responsibility to enjoy your life is basically your own.
Part 2: Why the self-styled progressives are dangerous, practically
Progressives mess around with things they don't understand. In general, things are how they are for a reason. Not necessarily the best of reasons, but always for reasons, and people who don't understand those reasons are engaged in exactly the kind of activity that the Hippocratic Oath was meant to prevent; a regrettable tendency of mankind called "fucking around with things you don't understand".
It is much more difficult to come up with positive suggestions than to shoot down other people's ideas. Our progressive friends are very proud of this slogan, taking the implication that they should be admired for attempting something difficult, whereas we "Negativists" ought to be castigated for our laziness in taking the easy road. However, they are perhaps forgetting the important principle:
If something is difficult to do well, it is often easy to do badly. It is very difficult to come up with specific suggestions for the improvement of a complicated system. This is why management consultants are so well paid. It is also why so many management consultants' ideas end in failure. It is, however, much easier to see the flaws in an idea. Given this, what should somebody with no specific expertise in public policy do? Should they try to generate suggestions for far-reaching change despite the handicap of having no specific or systemic knowledge of what they are talking about? Or, given that the status quo is at least tolerable and has got to where it is for a reason, should they restrict themselves to looking for the mistakes that the reformers and progressives might be making (in the knowledge that progressives are never all that keen on thinking themselves about why they might be wrong)? Which task is easier? Which is more likely to be done well?
Let me repeat that three times, because it is important.
1. There is no such thing as a general purpose expert. Most people know one or two things very well. In their own field, most people are capable of making a contribution and having a good idea. Unless that field is social policy, constitutional law or international relations, the sphere in which most people can make a useful positive suggestion is unlikely to overlap with what is in the newspapers. It is possible to pretend to be able to make a useful positive contribution, but this is like pretending to be able to swim; it doesn't actually confer the ability.
2. It's a lot easier to spot the flaws in someone else's work. I cannot fly an aeroplane but I can spot a crappy landing. I can't cook a stew, but I can tell the difference between beef and shit. I can't write a symphony but I can tell when something's out of key. In general, for most people and most fields, their opinions about what is wrong with something are more likely to be worth listening to than their ideas about what might be done right. Karl Popper built a whole philosophy on this important point.
3. Everyone secretly enjoys the smell of their own farts. Even if the previous two points were not true (and they are), the fact remains that the common man has to find fault with the schemes of the benefactors of humanity, because they will not criticise themselves. Everyone is always in love with their own idea. Nobody is objective about their own creation. The "Progressives" will always try to think through the consequences of their actions, but end up daydreaming about how great things will be in their perfect world.
The point here is that negativism is the only sensible course of action for the plain man, because many "progressive" schemes are practically worthless or dangerous.
Progressives assume that everyone is a progressive. Most or at least many of our progressive cousins are people of good will, who simply believe that they know a little bit better than the mass of humanity, and who just want to organise things a little bit better. However, it can't but be noticed that most of their progressive schemes involve nothing so simple as the handing out of chunks of cash (which I am in general in favour of, so long as the taxation isn't too ruinous), but rather all sorts of little schemes aimed at controlling people's behaviour – either direct restrictions on liberty, or the million and one little incentives and means-tests that they love to slip in there in order to nudge people in the "right" direction. The Original Tory Anarchist had a wonderful line in the Road to Wigan Pier about the kind of person attracted to socialist politics not so much out of any real concern for justice but out of a hypertrophied sense of order, and it is surprisingly (or rather, unsurprisingly) difficult to find a single example in all the volumes of the Collected Works Of Saint George of a positive policy suggestion for anything. (My own intellectual hero, JM Keynes, was always making positive suggestions, but this is because he was as close as we're going to get to a genuine all-purpose expert).
The trouble with this hypertrophied concern for order is that the progressive always underestimates the extent to which he is providing the infrastructure for repression. An identity card system makes all sorts of jolly schemes easier to implement, but it also makes it possible to institute pass laws at a later date. The ASBO is a fine way of ensuring that old ladies aren't intimidated by the sight of teenagers "hanging around", but it is also a means of criminalising non-criminal offences. Maybe National Service would be fun and healthy for a lot of kids, but it is conscription. And so on.
Progressives are in general, unnecessary for the purpose they puport to serve. Progress does, in fact, happen. It in general happens because even the dullest man working on a job for forty years will come up with a way to do it better, if only out of a desire to reduce the onerousness of the task. Institutions get better over time, or they collapse entirely and are replaced by better ones. Wars and great crises will often accelerate the process, or allow new social bargains to be struck to replace old ones which are unfair or inefficient. The actual results which can be attributed to the self-appointed uplifters of mankind are quite laughably meagre when compared either to their grandiose self-praise, or to the achievements of people who simply wanted to get on with their lives.
Part 3: Why progressives are in general odious
They are so bumptious. As I mentioned above, the progressives are people who think they know best. They are the Residents' committees, the Parent Teacher Association, the Sixth Form Council. Or rather, they are not any of these things, all of which are sensible and necessary institutions (perhaps with the exception of Sixth Form Councils). They are, rather, the loudest-mouthed and most self-important members of said organisations, the self-promoters. The people whose defining characteristic is the belief that the simple fact that they have organised a meeting implies a positive duty upon others to turn up to it; who regard "apathy" as a weakness and moral failing in the population, one which must be cleansed from us all via some progressive scheme aimed at educating us until we give a fuck.
They proliferate committees and call it success. I mentioned above how pitifully thin on the ground successes are for the self-styled progressives (as opposed to successes of other people for which they are happy to take credit). So often, you will see a progressive touting "increased involvement" in some damnable progressive committee or other as a success in and of itself; he counts himself a hero because he has encouraged more and more of his fellow men to waste their time on dreary committees which had previously only troubled himself and his progressive mates. If one ever wishes to know why it is that the state tends to expand so much, it is for this reason; it takes a bricklayer to make a wall, but any fool can make a committee and most of them have tried.
They bear an ugly contempt for those who they are trying to stiff with the bill. The baker does not worry that others are "consumers" of bread, nor the ukulele player that others are "consumers" of music. But the progressive certainly looks down on the "consumer" of politics with an entirely unwarranted condescension. Because the consumer of politics, of course, is the economic base of the whole bloody thing. Every grand progressive scheme is a new imposition on general taxation. This is of course not to say that taxation is too onerous, or that any particular scheme is a bad idea. Just that it is unseemly beyond measure (and more than a little bit redolent of the petulant teenager) to simultaneously snub someone for their lack of enthusiasm in your hobby, and present them with the bill. Whatever our Prime Minister thinks, there are no duties of a citizen beyond paying one's taxes and obeying the law ... but here I drift into defending the basic principles of political liberalism, which I no more intend to bother with than to defend the principle that bread is more nutritious than brick dust. Note that this is not incompatible with believing in any particular ideal size of tax and benefit system, and the idea that libertarianism in any sensible form is incompatible with the welfare state is a close cousin of the point I am about to make.
Their political proposition is so close to blackmail. And the progressive, in guise as the "grown up liberal" is always up in our face, warning us of the dire consequences of what will happen if we grow too grumpy at being alternately patronised, soaked for cash and stripped of our constitution. The Tories will get in! The Tories will get in! And the poor, old and infirm are dragged out again and waved in our faces ... see what will happen if you don't vote for more of this? They'll cut her housing benefit! They'll close his school! And it'll all be your fault, not mine!
This is quite simply, the politics of "nice welfare state you've got here ... be a shame if something happened to it". As a good middle class burgher, I am no more likely to submit to it than to any other kind of extortion, and I note from the electoral statistics that the working class of the UK did not actually respond any better to this crude threat than people like me. We have most of us lived through a Tory government, and while much of what they did was stupid and nasty, the sky did not fall in and the world did not end, or at least not to a sufficient extent that the other lot can rely on our uncritical support come what may and till Kingdom Come.
So many of them are careerists. Is it unserious or insulting to mention this? Well I shall be unserious and insulting then. It is possible to make a very good living out of the creation of grand schemes for the uplifting of the masses or the superior organisation of the infrastructure of the state. And making a living in this way has the very great advantage over the normal way that it matters much less if your ideas work. The social reformer with an eye for the main chance is a subject which has been dealt with sufficiently in his guise as Kenneth Widmerpool, so I don't think I need to spend much more time on it at the end of this already grossly tedious document (If it was a bore to read, think what it was like to write).
Conclusion
The only honourable profession for anyone with the "progressive" disposition is as a foreign aid worker. The developing world is full of places where "progress" of the sort that the socialists of the 1930s talked about is needed. There is a massive world of poor people out there who might be able to benefit from your schemes, and only the tiniest bit of it is controlled by the EZLN. Please do make sure that you copy the Subcommandante in combining your progressive vision with a little humility and humanity first however; consider the possibility that actually the people of the world might want to get along without your help and that actually, your destiny is to stay at home and be a consumer of politics too. As a greater philosopher than I once said, a man's gotta know his limitations. On the other hand, if central heating and football on the telly are more attractive to you than Landrovers and dysentery, please keep your schemes for the general betterment of mankind to yourself. Get a job as a councillor or something and stick to the nuts and bolts of getting things done, in your specific area of competence, and spend more of your time on protecting your constituents from the daily attacks made on them by the political system, than in trying to dragoon them into projects of your own devising. There is a German proverb which points out that it is a mistake to try to shit higher than your arse.
PS: It is clear that the "Progressive" bears more than a family resemblance to the "Managerialist", in the same way that with the perspective of thirty years, the punk rocker rather resembles the hippy.
PPS: with the greatest of apologies to Subcomandante Marcos, in my opinion certainly the most important political thinker of this century so far, for stealing his jokes. Note that to pretend to be a Zapatista in Dalston is about as silly as pretending to be a churchwarden in Chiapas.
PPS: In case the above does not make things sufficiently clear, I shit on the progressives of this planet.
PPPS: I find it curious that someone could look "through the archives" of my blog and claim to be unsure of whether I have any ideas which I am in favour of. The title bar is not a joke. I only need to add that I have no specific progressive schemes aimed at increasing the size of British pies or shortening the British working week, for the excellent reason that I am neither a baker nor a trade unionist.
PPPPS: In the words of Robert Anton Wilson, "perhaps I should have voted for the libertarian party, but I'm not that kind of libertarian. I don't hate the poor enough".
PPPPPS: of course, my favourable comments regarding Subcommandante Marcos above should not be taken as in any sense glorifying terrorism for the purposes of our indubitably progressive UK law.
PPPPPPPS: Some of my best friends are progressives. No really. If the cap does not fit, why wear it?
PPPPPPPPPPPPPS: (thanks for comments from Chris Bertram) Please take this as my alternative suggestion to all future proposals to uplift the working classes "why not achieve this through a cash transfer through the tax and benefit system?". Many things have been tried as solutions to the problem of poverty, but the only cure to have demonstrated consistent success is money.
So: you're planning to start the "For fuck's sake don't press any of those buttons party"?
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking of calling it "Status Quo", as that's a catchy Latin motto which, as luck would have it, is equally reviled by punks and hippies.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough, the funding of political parties is the single subject on which I have ever made a construtive suggestion - my idea of open primaries for the UK:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/daniel_davies/2006/03/public_funding_of_political_pa.html
That's if we don't recruit you into the secret army of left-libertarians under Subcommandante Dillow first. For a reduction in the four firm concentration ratio of government!
ReplyDeleteI always want to like Chris's blog and I will certainly buy his book, but I think he really does go a bit overboard in spotting managerialists everywhere; he's like the David Hirsh of managerialism. Things do, in general, need managed, and I am just as suspicious of grand decentralisation schemes as grand centralisation schemes. Anyone who really wants to "give politics back to the local people" really ought to think what an absolute shower the median parish council contains. Properly considered, I think Hayek is with me on this one.
ReplyDeleteI also, as indicated above, put much less faith than Chris does in the possibility of making people any happier once they have enough food to eat. I'm a bit of a Grayekian on that one - all this progress stuff is up the wall. And my casual empiricism suggests that the ASBO chavtastic underclass appear to be having a whale of a time, so good on them.
Ah, well, at this point we have to apply the Harrowell Corollary: as long as we kill all the wankers first, almost anything will work, but that isn't an argument for mass wanker extermination. Sadly.
ReplyDelete...even the dullest man working on a job for forty years will come up with a way to do it better, if only out of a desire to reduce the onerousness of the task.
ReplyDeleteThat's just not true. And neither is this:
Institutions get better over time, or they collapse entirely and are replaced by better ones.
In fact, institutions get worse over time and almost never collapse, and it takes tremendous effort to keep them from deteriorating.
Abb1, I think history is full of institutions which have collapsed. I'd dispute that sentence on the semantic grounds of what 'better' is supposed to mean in this context. There's a case for saying that Microsoft has got better over the past 30 years (more profitable; better software) and a case for saying that it has got worse (over charges; employs a lot of semi-parasitical lawyers who don't contribute to the product; bloated software).
ReplyDeleteI'll go only part way with DD on CD: I think he's a fine blogger, and his book should be very interesting. However, because he posts so much, he does tend to make the same points with different examples, so I tend to save up his posts and skim until I find a good one.
Well, exactly - they are getting better at protecting their existence.
ReplyDeleteI imagine the agency responsible for eradication of smallpox did collapse - because it was successful. I'm sure institutions responsible for eradication of, say, illegal drugs won't make this fatal mistake.
OK, where do I sign....?
ReplyDeleteHate to quibble with what is a highly effective kick at very annoying people, but ...
ReplyDeleteThe reason why things are how they are often has to do -- as you well know -- with the balance of power when they were getting to be how they are, rather than with any impartially good reasons for them to be that way.
And whilst I agree that we are a First World Country and that given our level of wealth everyone could enjoy a decent standard of life, it is pretty obvious that becasue of the distribution of that wealth not everyone does.
Not that the Blairites want to challenge the distribution of power or income, mind.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete"fucking around with things you don't understand". Sweet Jesus dude I do that all the time. I guess its the way I learn. Does that mean I'm a "Progressive?"
ReplyDeleteI find the best "general fact" about the world is that it pivots between two key points: Money and Sex. Every question and every answer you have about life on this planet ultimately revolves around money and sex.
Here's another key fact about the world: Never ever think beyond six months to a year into the future. Its just impossible to predict any further than that.
Finally, and this will be the most helpful of all the facts for you. There is only one "First" on Earth and that is the United States of America. Accept this fact and you won't be such a sour puss.
Just as an aside: Your right your country isn't thrid world but from talking to visitors returning from England it sure looks like a third world country. Ashame, immigration does'nt suite the UK very well I guess.
I think Chris makes a lot of good points above. I should note that I've always been in favour of any revenue-neutral improvement in the progressivity of the tax system and of moves to tax capital rather than labour income (and am rather sharply sceptical of marginalist arguments against doing so). I'd in general defend minimum wages on grounds of being a reasonable try, even though in my heart of hearts I don't think they make a huge amount of difference when all's said and done. But:
ReplyDelete1) obviously, changes to the tax code can be made without any major new infringement of civil liberties (I'm not the kind of libertarian who believes that a tax is a meaningful restriction on liberty and even minimum wage laws are pretty hard to get worked up about) and
2) This rather shows up how ludicrous the "non-negativist" requirement is; do I have to come up with an alternative budget every year? As it happens I do have a few constructive solutions about alternatives for pension provision (basically a state earnings-related pension system – all I lack is a catchy acronym for it), but it would take an unreasonable amount of time and effort to write them up (and to read them).
note that there is one deleted comment above. there is a new comments policy, which is that you have to provide either a name or some content, or both. Anonymous comments which don't look interesting get the chop.
ReplyDelete(note also that from the fact that I have not deleted "John Booke"'s comment above, that the bar for what counts as "content" for non-anonymous posters is set really quite incredibly low)
ReplyDeleteThis looks rather like the intellectually respectable elements of toryism, Daniel. (That's not necessarily meant as a criticism.)
ReplyDeleteWell, someone might as well pick up the Tory hand and try to play it; the Conservative Party certainly isn't interested in doing so. I am gradually moving in the direction of my political hero and style guru, Dr Enneas Carneiro.
ReplyDeleteYou're right of course; this is pretty undiluted "against progress" John Grayism. I think there's a lot to be said for it as practical politics. I probably ought to add a bit on responding to Chris's point though. I would be keener on Zapatistaism if it wasn't so obviously a time and place specific ideology (apart from its opposition to neoliberalism of course but I am against that anyway as part of the general anti-everything policy).
btw, I suppose an equally fair precis of this piece would be "the vulnerability! the fallibility!"
ReplyDeleteI really don't like to come to someone's blog and make snarky comments as my first contribution
ReplyDeleteif you knew what kind of blog this was you would not feel the need to apologise!
did you really need so many words to say "I think classic Mill-ite liberalism is right and more redistributive approaches are wrong?"
probably not but 1) I did need most of those words to fight a nasty passive-aggressive nerdwar which was my other purpose and b) I am actually in favour of redistributive approaches, albeit apparently only as an afterthought in response to comments.
The thing is, hurray for redistribution, but redistribution is actually very simple; you write a cheque to Peter and send a tax demand to Paul. This has the advantage that, unless the tax system is ludicrously inefficiently designed (and I certainly don't think that this charge could credibly be levelled even at the 1960s UK one with 95% supertax), Paul can carry on with a normal life free of state interference so long as he pays the bill.
Lots of egalitarians seem to be very uncomfortable with the simplest way to their desired outcome, perhaps because of all the guilt complex we all have about money, plus hangups about meritocracy and so on. But it's actually a really good way to solve the problem - poverty is in general caused by a lack of money, which is a problem that can be solved really easily.
It might be right to say that the "true" cause of poverty and lack of life chances is ignorance, malnutrition, antisocial behaviour etc, but as Chris Dillow often says, you don't cure a pedestrian with a broken leg by sending the bus backwards over him.
Correctly considered, I think that this is close to Mill's position, but I disagree with you that Millian liberalism commits you to any particular view on redistribution.
people I respect linked to this post and I want to understand why
to be honest (guessing who those people might be), this is part of a long series on my blog and other people's and it might not be worth your while digging through it. I said a lot of the same things more interestingly here:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/daniel_davies/2006/09/dont_just_do_something_stand_t.html
and all that this adds is a general political agenda against action.
or more succinctly, I think that too many schemes trading under the brand "redistribution", "empowering", "communities" etc, are trying to make a lot of coercion and complexity do the work of a little bit of cash, and that this is almost always a bad tradeoff.
ReplyDeleteHmmm, egalitarian conservatism=market socialism? Discuss. I think it was the Aussie humourist John Birmingham who remarked that money was the anti-depressant that gets to the cause of your problem.
ReplyDeleteOh, and if you're that yank twat upthread, fuck off.
I think Abb1's tangential invocation of Parkinson's law is mildly relevant, and Parkinson's recommendation that organisations suffering from terminal injellititis be liquidated and any residually useful functions reallocated elsewhere is worth bearing in mind. I recommend beginning with the Department of Trade and Industry. But I don't think this constitutes progressivism as defined here.
ReplyDeleteBy the way,"fucking around with things you don't understand" is a technical definition of programming. However, that's all right because computers, unlike the country, are designed and closed systems with a limited range of predictable behaviours. People who believe that the world is similar (and there are such) should be terminated with extreme prejudice.
Chris Y
Alex said:
ReplyDeleteDaniel, by the way, can I introduce you to my RSS feed, or at least a bookmark? I notice that you're googling "yorkshire ranter" every morning at about 10am.
[redacted by management]
yes that would be a good idea wouldn't it ...
Although Hippocratus said "first, do no harm," it's not in his oath.
ReplyDeleteThe oath says roughly this:
keep medicine a secret of this guild and
do not perform abortions or euthanasia
Well, DD, it's such a treat when a negativist finally says what they think - as opposed to what's wrong with what everyone else does.
ReplyDeleteAnd your defence of that little vice - along with the rest of this post-hoc justification - wouldn't get you very far if you had to write it up as an essay, would it? 5/10 - must try harder I reckon?
But, (and at the risk of continuing "a nasty passive-aggressive nerdwar") for the courtesy of saying what you're in favour of, I'll give you a point-by-point reply.
In time, of course - you've given me a good deal to think about.
Tune in!
http://nevertrustahippy.blogspot.com/
One little point to be starting off with though:
Why do you conflate 'progressive' with 'statist'? It's bad manners to invent someone else's position.
I gave you plenty of statements to attack that I'd be prepared to defend. I share much of your 'millian liberalism' as it happens. I just think that your advocacy of that position springs from either narcissism or cowardice (haven't decided which yet). I said why in the original post.
Oh, and did I say? I think it's all a big post-hoc rationalisation that a little poke around your back-catalogue will expose in short order.
Douglas - worst limerick ever.
ReplyDeleteDaniel - did you ever take the Edwards Four-Way Political Philosophy Test (As Seen On Usenet)? It's at... ah, I don't know, but google 'pelagian' and you'll find it soon enough. (Checks. Actually, no. Google 'pelagian whig', no quotes. For reference, IANA Pelagian Whig, and neither are you if I'm any judge.)
Paul - look up 'passive aggressive'. (It's not far from 'I can't see why they're calling me a boorish flamebaiting troll, I was being perfectly polite'.)
And your defence of that little vice - along with the rest of this post-hoc justification - wouldn't get you very far if you had to write it up as an essay, would it? 5/10 - must try harder I reckon?
ReplyDeleteWell since your argument against it appears to be nothing more than this rather unoriginal sneer, if we are to be graded on the same curve I think you're in line for 0/10, clearly not trying, and at significant risk in the current environment of some do-gooding organisation or other enrolling your family in a compulsory parenting skills program.
Why do you conflate 'progressive' with 'statist'?
I don't. I have nothing against statists or the state. I am happy with the state at its current size and would even like to see it larger as a % of GDP so long as this was done without interfering with people's liberty. Oh tee oh aitch, I specifically mentioned Residents' Associations as a kind of non-state organisation that tends to be absolutely riddled with the kind of "progressive" types upon which, as I mentioned, I shit.
It's bad manners to invent someone else's position.
tu quoque mate, tu quoque.
I just think that your advocacy of that position springs from either narcissism or cowardice (haven't decided which yet).
I shit upon the revolutionary vanguards of this planet.
Daniel - did you ever take the Edwards Four-Way Political Philosophy Test
ReplyDeleteI took Chris Lightfoot's orthogonalised version and can't remember where I ended up; a very low score on the "axis of UKIP" IIRC.
and, triple posting like the quintessential nutter I am, I'll confirm that "negativism" is not an intellectual vice, or any other kind. It always amuses me how people who own a great big stack of Dilbert books and love to laugh at the idiocies of management and so on, swallow the same stuff whole (often presented by the same people) when they double the price and call it politics.
ReplyDeleteD2: May the revolutionary vanguard get shot by the sniper of reason whilst trying to dig their vehicles out of the bog of their own contradictions in order to pursue the vanishing rearguard of their strawmen, right?
ReplyDeleteAh, well, here we find ourselves jointly confounded by the minefield of paradox. The assumptions of either managerial/progressive meddling, or else reactionary bullying, are so deeply embedded in our institutions we're going to have to be pretty damn revolutionary to shift'em.
Fetch the jointed probe of debate, the ground-penetrating radar of science, the sniffer dog of pedantry, if it can be distracted from the aimless bollock-licking it's addicted to. Let's hope we don't run out of metaphors and get blown up.
Phil,
ReplyDelete"Paul - look up 'passive aggressive'. (It's not far from 'I can't see why they're calling me a boorish flamebaiting troll, I was being perfectly polite'.) "
Fair comment. I'll accept 'flamebaiting.' Not sure about boorish and troll is just inaccurate. A troll doesn't back up a snipe with an argument. And they only deal with a juicy subset of an argument. I've got the opposite problem. My blog would undoubtedly benefit from an editor.
I've looked at your blog before and argued with you and you've always been more reasonable and to-the-point than I've sometimes been. And I'm prepared to acknowledge that I sometimes bait people in order to get them to argue with me.
Our genial host, however, lacks your good grace on this, so I'm not all eaten up with guilt here. And look at the other participants in this particular spat (here, on my blog and on Pootergeek's post) - you'll see that they aren't entirely innocent either.
The position that I'm taking here is not a particularly common one - and it's one that needs to be argued noisily, otherwise it'll just sink without a trace.
It doesn't mean the point I'm making is wrong though, just in case any of this looks like such an admission.
;-)
So what is your point then? So far we've had from you: a cheap, assertion-only snarkburst, accusations of hypocrisy on unspecified issues, and complaints about treatment of same. Entirely, and I mean entirely, content-free.
ReplyDeletePaulie, are you familiar with the talk radio slogan "state your case or shut your face"?
ReplyDeleteSo far, your argument against "negativism" appears to be to call it "negativism". You keep claiming that I haven't addressed your points without ever saying what they are. You keep talking about an obligation to offer solutions without ever saying why it's a good idea.
As far as I can tell, your entire political position appears to be a sort of elongated sneer at everyone else for not being as mature as you.
of course, sneering at other people for being immature is ... well, it's hard to think of anything more teenage.
I've said that I will address every single point in this posting here. Time constraints mean that I can't do it immediately. But I will do so. Each point I make will have a post of it's own to make it easier to commment on. You will be able to find them here:
ReplyDeletehttp://nevertrustahippy.blogspot.com/
... in due course.
Hang on. I'm asking you to state your own point of view and your response is going to be purely negative, looking for flaws in mine? Isn't that a bit negativist?
ReplyDeleteNope. I will also suggest what approach you could take instead of the negativist one that you do take.
ReplyDeleteExciting, isn't it?
not really. Not unless you're going to actually back up a lot of these windy assertions about "where power resides" and doulby triply if you are, as I suspect, going to end up burying yourself in a pile of sub-Giddens verbiage. and I have read the John Lloyds book "what the media are doing to our politics" and thought it was crap then (note to my regular readers: "thought it was crap" counts as a review)
ReplyDeleteI'm sure it's the sort of thing that economists do a lot but I'm not aware of any specific pieces of work and it would be the job from hell to get right. My guess is that the state can probably gain economies of scale on unit cost as long as it doesn't means-test, but as soon as it tries to cut the bill by means-testing, all the scale economy gets eaten up by the overhead.
ReplyDeleteTom, if you mean the basic income, the Wikipedia article has a few examples.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
Not much by way of detail, but it might show a few places to start looking.
A while ago, Chris Dillow had numbers to go on based on the 2005 budget.
http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2005/04/the_case_for_ba.html
The problem doesn't seem to be how you make the case for a basic income, it is the absence of a roadmap to on in the first place.
A citizen's pension is a pretty good test run for a basic income and has most of the same problems writ small. The Pensions Policy Institute has done a pretty good job of pricing that up for the UK.
ReplyDelete...mildly relevant...
ReplyDeleteYes, but almost everything in this post is only mildly relevant, all these unfortunate side-effects, things like careerism, fear-mongering ('blackmail'), arrogance, dogmatism, etc. These are tendencies of any form of activism.
And what seems to be the crux of the argument - that things are the way they are for a reason - is a mere truism, banality; sure there are reasons, obviously there are reasons for everything, including "progressives" (whatever it means) since they do exist.
Progress does, in fact, happen. It in general happens because even the dullest man working on a job for forty years will come up with a way to do it better, if only out of a desire to reduce the onerousness of the task.
ReplyDeleteYou've just summed up operaista Marxism, only without the bits about exploitation and class struggle. Thought you might like to know.
I reckon you're a Liberal Historian, incidentally. Not as bad as it sounds.
You've just summed up operaista Marxism
ReplyDeleteIt's certainly one of the key arguments in Jerry Cohen's Karl Marx's Theory of History for the proposition that the material productive forces tend to grow over time....
Seems to me that there's another serious flaw in the "things are as they are for a reason", namely that it conflates explanation and justification and thereby misses the fact that the reason things turned out as they did in some area might have little to do with the reasons that ought to apply in that are. Money, sport, and the generally shitty character to the English Premier League could provide some choice examples, Italian politics some others.
That was me, btw, inadvertently anonymous.
ReplyDeleteSomehow I seriously doubt that any species of marxism would declare that social progress happens without progressive activism and advocacy. Marxism without the class struggle bit, huh. That's a good one.
ReplyDeleteIt's certainly one of the key arguments in Jerry Cohen's Karl Marx's Theory of History for the proposition that the material productive forces tend to grow over time....
ReplyDeleteI suspect that's where I've subconsciously plagiarised it from then. It's also in a number of management textbooks.
"Things are how they are for a reason" isn't meant to be a knock-down argument against all change ever. The point would be that someone who doesn't understand the reason is likely to make big and important mistakes in trying to improve things - viz, British university education since the 1980s. Organic change is what I'm in favour of; not gradualism for gradualism's sake, although most organic change is gradual and I doubt that's a coincidence. Even Italian politics is a lot better than it used to be, and the last big attempt at revitalising Italy, kicking out the corrupt old order, making the trains run on time, etc etc, kind of points out the risks.
(of course, if Italy was located in Africa, we would all say that the real problem is that it's an artificial state, patched together in the 19th century from a variety of conflicting ethnicities)
I don't understand the example of Premiership soccer, by the way - surely you judge a football league by the quality of the teams in it, and we currently have three teams left in the Champions League, more than any other country in Europe.
abb1: Somehow I seriously doubt that any species of marxism would declare that social progress happens without progressive activism and advocacy.
ReplyDeleteWell, Althusserian readings of Marx get pretty deterministic, but that's not important right now. What I wrote was:
"You've just summed up operaista Marxism, only without the bits about exploitation and class struggle."
Hope that's clearer. Google Mario Tronti, Sergio Bologna, Harry Cleaver and so on if you're curious.
:I don't understand the example of Premiership soccer, by the way - surely you judge a football league by the quality of the teams in it,...."
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0tkwqhXTc4
... and we have 4 teams left btw.
ReplyDeleteActually, what you ought to say is that the FAPL is a prime example of people fucking things up with "the status quo is not an option" arguments.
ReplyDelete53 comments! I should check in more often. Anyway, I'm confident that no one has yet made my point: That waggy finger dude is doing it all wrong. If you look closely at the Gadhafi picture you'll see that the middle finger is extended. Yet he is trying to wag his index finger at Saddam; much different. This is why, frankly, Brits shouldn't be jumping in on American attempts to deal with evil dictators. (Well, at least my conclusion is sound.)
ReplyDeleteAnd who says Status Quo is reviled by punks and hippies? Camper van Beethoven, hippy-punk synthesizers if there ever was, covered "Pictures of Matchstick Men."
ReplyDeleteHa ha. Nothing substantive to say here because it's not clear to me that this applies very well in the US, esp. "even being poor is not so bad" etc. where we've got an entire cityworth of refugees that we've been neglecting pretty efficiently for over a year now, AFAICT. Also, the self-appointed uplifters of mankind did have a lot of success here back in the civil rights era.
Often it isn't necessary to know how the gadgets under the hood work. Hit the gas pedal - it goes fast, hit the brakes - it stops, and you can usually steer right and left without worrying about valves and belts. Up to a point, of course.
ReplyDeleteExcellent stuff.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing that when the tories do get in, all these positive consentual progressive types will switch to deep negativism like a shot.
Yes, I was going to make a similar point - although it is possible to make a plausible general case against 'negativism' in political debate, it just so happens that the great bulk of people who are so hostile to 'negativism' at the moment are Labour Party hacks.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid I can't be arsed to go back and work out what this spat is really about. You do however seem to have a strange view of progressive. This for example:
ReplyDeleteHowever, it can't but be noticed that most of their progressive schemes involve nothing so simple as the handing out of chunks of cash (which I am in general in favour of, so long as the taxation isn't too ruinous), but rather all sorts of little schemes aimed at controlling people's behaviour รข€“ either direct restrictions on liberty, or the million and one little incentives and means-tests that they love to slip in there in order to nudge people in the "right" direction.
I can't imagine anything less progressive.
well this is my truth; tell me yours.
ReplyDeleteNot sure how they'd fit in your schema (that is, if you'd consider them progressive as you've defined it here), but two forms of progressive type activism that I think escape most of your critique:
ReplyDelete1. Advocacy of large-scale reforms that have already been proven to work in other countries. An obvious example is the push for some sort of national health care system in the United States.
2. Attempts to make reforms in order to prevent harm that is currently being done. A lot of environmentalist appeals would fall in this category.
I'd add
ReplyDelete3) new ideas for helping to make society more healthy and equal, which don't involve putting restrictions on people's liberty or undermining democratic institutions
and between the three of them, we may have covered as much as 15% of the New Labour project.
I have to wonder how many of the cyber-leftist hippie punks who read this will, before lapsing into predictable foaming rage, realize that it's a rather good critique of the Bush administration's intelligence reforms, proposed social security reforms, and foreign policy initiatives (off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more).
ReplyDeleteAh, well. You've put "Progressive" and "shit" into the same sentence, so I'll just have to content myself with enjoying the the warm spray of invective and organic corn-chip crumbs.
At least I feel a bit better now about the party I tend to vote for being the "negative" one with "no ideas."
"Why I blog" is probably best explained by reference to my underlying personality flaws rather than anything else. It's probably true that you can deduce most of what I'm going to say from a few fairly simple principles taken from Mill and Hayek, but on the other hand you can deduce your local vicar's Sunday sermon from the Bible but he still goes through the motions.
ReplyDeleteIf I was going to make a case for why anyone might want to read my blog, it would probably be quite heavy on the fact that it has substantially more jokes in it than either "On Liberty" or "The Constitution of Liberty". Also, I am pretty good on matters of what you might call "practical reason"; simple principles will only get you so far without factual premises and there is a lot of art in selecting the *right* factual premises and extrapolating correctly from them. Lots of people who agree with me on most general issues of politics and values managed to end up on (what I consider to be) the wrong side of issues like farm subsidies, pensions, flat taxes, the Iraq War, etc etc. Ironically, I probably score quite well on the Birtian "Mission To Explain" which is so popular with the progressives, except in the crucial regard that I don't think it is an essential part of that mission to give politicians the benefit of the doubt.
Also, in our current environment, being against things is a full time job. There are so many things that it is necessary to be "AGAINST" and the government produces one or two new ones every other month. Added to that, the blogosphere itself generates so much crap and disinformation that I'd guess half of my output is dedicated to trying to stop people believing important things that aren't true.
by the way, this blog has been more or less complete crap for the last year, hasn't it? The stuff at the Guardian is frankly much better. I think you can pretty much precisely date the start of the slump to when I started procrastinating on the Levitt review.
"...even being poor is not so bad."
ReplyDeleteWow, just, wow. Your middle to upper-class prejudices are showing. Plonk
This is undeniably funny but you could easily substitute 'anybody who comments on policy' for 'progressive' and it would still stand.
ReplyDelete